These ones / those ones?

Esspee

BBbevan

Georgesgran do you say ‘an’ hotel?

An hotel is correct. At least that was what I was taught.

I was taught this too, but have never understood why it’s ‘correct’ - unless it’s because it was originally a French word and in French the ‘h’ would be silent.
We don’t say an house, or an husband.
Makes no sense to me.

Oldnproud

MaizieD

Oldnproud

Either a hotel or an 'otel.

An hotel always seems like a curious mixture of French and English to me.
It's not as if we say an horse or ^an hair brush^

That's because horse and hairbrush aren't French words. Hotel and history (and hospital) come from French, where they'd be 'otel and 'istoire. The use of 'an' before them made sense then because you would use it before any noun that started with a vowel sound. Now everyone says them with a 'h' sound...

'These ones' and 'those ones' have a bit of logic to them. After all, you'd say 'this one' or 'that one'. I suppose people think you need to extend it to the plural. I dislike it and would never say it..

"That's because horse and hairbrush aren't French words. Hotel and history (and hospital) come from French, where they'd be 'otel and 'istoire. The use of 'an' before them made sense then because you would use it before any noun that started with a vowel sound. Now everyone says them with a 'h' sound..."

Your last sentence is exactly why I consider an hotel wrong.
As you say, everyone (almost everyone, anyway) now pronounces the 'h' of ^hotel'.

It has happened naturally, and just as naturally, most people have also adopted the article that is grammatically appropriate in the English language for words with an aspirated 'h^.

You won't change my mind on this, so we'll just have to agree to disagree

And indeed the same argument would make it 'an hostel' as hostel is (or probably more accurately was) a French word.

I have no problem with people saying 'an hotel' if they prefer but in my mind it belongs in the category of the grammar that was taught in schools that makes no sense. Like split infinitives, or shouting 'you can't end a sentence with a proposition' when - in most of the cases - the word is not functioning as a preposition but as a particle of a phrasal verb.

Or indeed starting a sentence with ‘and’ or ‘or’ as I’ve done twice in this post.

MaizieD

Oldnproud

Either a hotel or an 'otel.

An hotel always seems like a curious mixture of French and English to me.
It's not as if we say an horse or ^an hair brush^

That's because horse and hairbrush aren't French words. Hotel and history (and hospital) come from French, where they'd be 'otel and 'istoire. The use of 'an' before them made sense then because you would use it before any noun that started with a vowel sound. Now everyone says them with a 'h' sound...

'These ones' and 'those ones' have a bit of logic to them. After all, you'd say 'this one' or 'that one'. I suppose people think you need to extend it to the plural. I dislike it and would never say it..

"That's because horse and hairbrush aren't French words. Hotel and history (and hospital) come from French, where they'd be 'otel and 'istoire. The use of 'an' before them made sense then because you would use it before any noun that started with a vowel sound. Now everyone says them with a 'h' sound..."

Your last sentence is exactly why I consider an hotel wrong.
As you say, everyone (almost everyone, anyway) now pronounces the 'h' of ^hotel'.

It has happened naturally, and just as naturally, most people have also adopted the article that is grammatically appropriate in the English language for words with an aspirated 'h^.

You won't change my mind on this, so we'll just have to agree to disagree

Shep Texted is quite hard to say.

And, I’ve just realised that the word ‘text’ has only recently become a verb; previously it was just a noun.
So that might be why the usage is so clumsy.

For a modern word like text I think whatever the majority/younger people say goes. If it's what becomes normal amongst the young text will become the past tense. There are lots of anomalies in English.

‘Text’ instead of ‘texted’ gets me. ‘So I text him and told him …’. Why do people think ‘text’ is the past tense?

Oh Lord Jane ‘off of’ really is the worst

‘Off of’ is another one that annoys me, eg ‘I took the coat off of the hanger’. It is also common now for people to say ‘breakfastses’ instead of ‘breakfasts’ and ‘textses’ instead of‘texts’. Just some of the things that annoy me in everyday speech, don't get me started on the correct use of ‘less’ and ‘fewer’.

Oldnproud

Either a hotel or an 'otel.

An hotel always seems like a curious mixture of French and English to me.
It's not as if we say an horse or ^an hair brush^

That's because horse and hairbrush aren't French words. Hotel and history (and hospital) come from French, where they'd be 'otel and 'istoire. The use of 'an' before them made sense then because you would use it before any noun that started with a vowel sound. Now everyone says them with a 'h' sound...

'These ones' and 'those ones' have a bit of logic to them. After all, you'd say 'this one' or 'that one'. I suppose people think you need to extend it to the plural. I dislike it and would never say it..

Georgesgran

Just what I was going to say k2000.
Not to derail the thread but I’ve noticed presenters saying a orange or a apple - we were always taught to say ‘an’ if before a vowel - so I’d say an apple or an orange.

Yes, and conversely they say a hotel, when it should be an hotel.

Sorry it's about these/those!

It's these if I'm holding them' and those if I'm pointing at them. I might have missed the point of this thread.

I was taught an hotel which I still say. Other words like hospital and hostel sound odd with 'an' so I say 'a'.

I say an 'otel, but I'm from Essex, so it's expected.

I say ‘an hotel’ and I’m quite common

I seem to vaguely remember our French teacher at high school explaining 'ce lui ci, ce lui la,' as these meaning this/ those near/ beside you and that/those meaning some distance/ pointing distance away?

i was taught that you should never say these ones or those ones as it was tautology and only used by the ill educated who knew no better!
another example is the pronuciation of the letter h as haitch instead of aitch, and yes, i was also taught that you should say an 'otel!

Either a hotel or an 'otel.

An hotel always seems like a curious mixture of French and English to me.
It's not as if we say an horse or an hair brush

Spot on Blossoming

An hotel. It’s an aspirated H, as it’s a French word.

Oldnproud I'm no expert but I believe the use of "these ones/those ones" are examples of tautology. This is when you use different words to repeat the same idea. A good example is 'in close proximity' which is grammatically incorrect but commonly used. Having said that, tautology is often used by poets to emphasise a particular point.

Tried saying this several times to myself - I do say an Hotel, but have heard criticism of that and that it’s supposed to be An‘Otel with a silent H? We also were encouraged to say thee apple or orange rather than a flat ‘the’. (Not thee as in God bless thee, but a slightly longer E. Perhaps it’s a North East thing?

BBbevan

Georgesgran do you say ‘an’ hotel?

An hotel is correct. At least that was what I was taught.

An hotel was always taught at grammar schools, and I believe was standard usage. People just can’t be bothered these days , but that was definitely the correct pronunciation and way of writing it

“These ones” is grammatically incorrect. I can’t remember how to describe why but maybe an English teacher will come along & explain?
It has been a pet hate if mine for years but hey ho, go with the flow.
Personally, I don’t say it.

BBbevan

Georgesgran do you say ‘an’ hotel?

Never heard that before. I thought the "h" in hotel was pronounced?