Aggression towards grandparents

were the parents present or did you just have the two children 5 and 4.

What a shocking experience for you Squeaker. Were the parents present when this was going on?

How did the parents react, either at the time, if present, or when you told them, when they returned.

As you say it is difficult to discipline the children in a situation like this. How about disciplining the parents. Tell them that they must always be with the children when they visit you, or that you cannot entertain them in your house until reasonable behaviour can be guaranteed because they are a danger to your health and wellbeing.

I feel like the parents should have warned you of this sort of behavior and because they didn’t..well you had to stop him on short notice and you were surely bewildered. It sounds absolutely awful as well, a wild animal going for the face!! Truly hope the boy learned something productive out of that. Of course this is all predicated on the assumption that, the hair pulling that you felt you had no choice but to do, was with the absolute minimum amount of force needed to prevent yourself being injured, which I’m sure is what happened here. So sorry Squeaker!

I would have phoned the parents to pick them up right away. That behaviour is not acceptable. I wouldn't have retaliated though by hair pulling.

How would smacking a child teach them not to hit?

You have also now taught the child to pull hair.

Yes the parents need to help this child to develop socially and emotionally but that is down to them and there are better ways of doing it.

There may also be underlying needs that will become apparent soon.

You have the right to avoid engaging with the child until that happens

Retaliating wasn’t the best idea, but this attack had gone on for over 30 mins. The child was hysterical and this did bring them back swiftly. This was a quick not hard tug.
No, parents not present.
I am certain this behaviour has happened before at home. Infact ,the child had told the mother that they wanted to hit their other grandma, but hadn’t. I was absolutely shocked when I heard this . No behaviour problems elsewhere as far as I am aware. I am really upset and it’s made things awkward as you can imagine.

I would personally remove myself from that sort of situation. If you can't and the child is in danger of hurting you or themselves, as a last resort I might use safe handling and sit the child on my lap in a hug hold until they calm down.

Also remember to use your words, explain your expectations. Offer choices. Use positive language, like "walk please" instead of "don't run". Have a reward for them to work towards with good behaviour.

At 5, there could be many reasons this is happening and it will just need patience and consistency. Something that exhausted parents may be struggling with. They need support.

Smacking children is unacceptable, as is pulling their hair. How do you know if "the child has been punished at all"?

You don't say who "both of us" is. Two adults?

My husband and I could quite easily subdue a 5 yr old with our speech, arms, hands and no violent hair pulling.

You certainly should be able to refuse to babysit until you enquire and are informed the child behaves, IMO.

this can't be just isolated with you if the child is 5

You probably should not have pulled the hair but easy to see why. Children of that age can still tantrum and be overwhelmed with their anger. Best to ask the parents how they deal with it - sometimes it is best to leave them to come out of it on their own.

You need to have a serious discussion with the parents immediately. Kicking, biting and hitting out at adults is not normal behaviour for a five year old, who should have been at school for the past year, and you need to find out if this behaviour happens elsewhere and what triggers it. I have no doubt you were in shock when this tantrum occurred.

Don't attempt to look after these children until you are clear what the issues are behind their actions. The parents need to seek professional help for their sons and face up to their behaviour.

VioletSky’s advice is probably the only sensible one here. Although I’ve never done the rewards thing. Sounds like the child was having a really hard time there emotionally and perhaps you’re not best placed to deal with it. Very presumptuous about what has gone on at home though.

I agree with M0nica and eazybee Squeaker. Until the parents can reassure you that this type of behaviour will not be repeated, don't agree to have the children at your home without the parents being there.

Such an extreme physical outburst at being told 'no' does suggest that this isn't the first time the child has responded in this way and has succeeded in getting his own way at home.

It certainly wouldn't be tolerated at school or any pre school places he may have attended previously. This is the parents responsibility to sort and I hope for the 5 year old they do so, and do it quickly.

Thanks everyone for your replies. Much appreciated and very helpful

Hope you manage to find a solution Squeaker.

Pulling a child's hair is not acceptable but,.............this attack had gone on for 30 minutes and the child was going for her face !!!!!!! In that situation I too would pull their hair. A five year old is strong and when out of control to that extent is dangerous. Having said that there is obviously a serious problem here which needs investigating . Speak to the parent/s and voice your fears, seek specialist support for the child so any underlying condition can be diognosed. If parents refuse help then you are perfectly entitled to refuse to have them in your care. This must be a very stressful situation and you must protect yourself and try to support the child and the parents. You must look after yourself! Good luck!

My first thought was autistic meltdown tbh. Its sad you no longer feel comfortable with your grandchild. Maybe they will get some support to manage their emotions and perhaps one day you will feel compassion where you currently feel unease.

In the meantime, this grandchild sounds like a burden to you, so you probably shouldn't be around them.

I wonder if behaviour like this is due to the demise of general respect for elders such as parents and grandparents.

The traditional status of elders is no longer observed.

Surely children can't benefit from lack of moral boundaries.

If the child is well-behaved elsewhere then it is a case of setting boundaries and dealing with a situation before it escalates.

The child was using violence to get their own way unfortunately pulling the child’s hair to get him to stop you reinforced the idea that getting physical works.

Maybe you should have a break from him until tempers improve.

Speaking of this as a possible meltdown in the neurodiverse sense rather than a normal childs tantrum per se, it would be interesting to know what you told him to stop doing. Was it a stimming or self soothing behaviour? Will you share what it was with us?

Did he react specifically harshly toward you because his other grandparents have similarly pushed these buttons and his young brain has made the connection grandparents=hostile?

Was he hungry? Do you eat later than his parents would? Do you eat different foods?

Not all children are the same. You shouldn't assume this one can take the same routine as the others.

My eldest son would have total melt-downs like that. He really would beside himself with rage and lash out at everybody and anything, including himself, banging his forehead until it was bruised. All this was nearly fifty years ago. We now know that he was( is) on the autistic range.

We tried putting him into a safe time out place whilst these tempers subsided. He would smash anything he could in there.

All I can say, is that as he is got older, he learned how to manage these tempers, and will even now all these many years later still walk away from any sort of confrontation. He walked out of his 40th birthday celebrations in a restaurant, because the waiters came out singing Happy Birthday. He has an excellent career and a lovely wife and home.

My advice is to discuss this with the parents, they do need to know. Perhaps it is happening in other places. They may need to seek some sort of professional advice. Poor child, she is just totally losing control, probably feels really bad afterwards. Talk to her about it also, and any future one try to control by letter he get it out of her system, and she will probably ends up in normal tears and exhausted. At that young age, it is usually able to be controlled by wrapping arms around her tight, or else having a very very safe time out space for her to go.

I can remember when he was about seven years old, my Brother in law, who a strict disiplinarian, decided to intervene when he threw one of these tantrums at their new house.. Put him outside to 'calm down'!!! It was fortunate that I caught him just in time as he picked up a garden chair and was about to throw it at the large plate glass kitchen patio door!!!

Agree with VS, Norah and papermonster

Gosh, sounds awful, I’m sure Squeaker knows it wasn’t ideal to pull his hair, but easy for us to say, we weren’t there.
But I agree with those who have said not to have them again until something has been resolved, and if this has happened before elsewhere, you should have been warned.
One of my grandsons has massive meltdowns, he’s eight, and although not so frequent, they still happen.
Generally he’s ignored, but not so easy if you have to get to school and work, he’s much too big to pick up now.
Horrible to deal with, especially when bad behaviour seemed to be happening all day.