Herd immunity impossible?

Rosie1959 I’m glad to hear that, because of the vaccination programme, you had no symptoms whatsoever. I had two vaccinations and a booster and six weeks after first testing positive for covid I am still exhausted (no, I don’t mean tired) with aching limbs. I am not able to do very much at all but fortunately I have a very willing husband who can. This virus is no respecter of persons or age groups or levels of fitness. I wouldn’t wish what I am going through on anybody.

I wear an ffp2 mask when in crowded places.

growstuff

rosie1959

MaizeD I agree with some of your points around testing ventilation and people staying off work if they are unwell.
Wearing quality FFP2 masks is also a good idea if you feel you need the extra protection but I certainly won't be wearing one and it's very unlikely many will especially as other European countries are dropping regulations
Who honestly unless they are particularly concerned wants to wear a tight fitting FFp2 mask in all indoor areas for the foreseeable future.

I do.

Well they are available everyone is free to make their own choice and as FFP2 masks if worn properly offer around 95% protection it won’t matter what others choose

growstuff

rosie1959

Katie59

It’s highly unlikely that we will eliminate Covid we have got to live with it, we should vaccinate and treat the symptoms as they arise.

As we have done with Influenza for many years.

I think this is true I was looking at the ONS figures there are far more deaths that involve influenza and pneumonia per week than there are involving Covid but we do not request restrictions like masks to avoid these deaths
Covid has higher figures for deaths that are actually due to Covid but I suspect we have built up a greater resistance to influenza
For the last few weeks deaths that are directly due to covid are around 500 per week predominantly as you would expect in the older age groups

Oh well! That's OK then! Who cares about oldies anyway? What about Long Covid?

I didn’t say I didn’t care but just posted the facts I had read on the ONS webpage. You would expect there to be more deaths in the over 85s and 90s it is not surprising.
Far more elderly people die with influenza and pneumonia as contributing factors. My dear dad had pneumonia on his death certificate but it was dementia that was the cause. We don’t have restrictions to prevent these deaths that total around 2.5k per week
Long Covid vaccination should help prevent some cases but you can’t legislate for everything thing there may not be an easy answer

rosie1959

MaizeD I agree with some of your points around testing ventilation and people staying off work if they are unwell.
Wearing quality FFP2 masks is also a good idea if you feel you need the extra protection but I certainly won't be wearing one and it's very unlikely many will especially as other European countries are dropping regulations
Who honestly unless they are particularly concerned wants to wear a tight fitting FFp2 mask in all indoor areas for the foreseeable future.

I do.

rosie1959

Katie59

It’s highly unlikely that we will eliminate Covid we have got to live with it, we should vaccinate and treat the symptoms as they arise.

As we have done with Influenza for many years.

I think this is true I was looking at the ONS figures there are far more deaths that involve influenza and pneumonia per week than there are involving Covid but we do not request restrictions like masks to avoid these deaths
Covid has higher figures for deaths that are actually due to Covid but I suspect we have built up a greater resistance to influenza
For the last few weeks deaths that are directly due to covid are around 500 per week predominantly as you would expect in the older age groups

Oh well! That's OK then! Who cares about oldies anyway? What about Long Covid?

Katie59

There are a great many viruses circulating in any populations, most of which have a large degree of immunity to them, it’s when you have a new virus strain that serious illness occurs. Influenza is a good example, the virus changes from year to year and scientists developed vaccines to protect against the most likely strains.

Because global travel is so widespread any new airborne virus is going to become a pandemic very quickly, we don’t know what the threat is in advance and it takes time to develop a vaccine. Corona virus is now endemic in the population, most of us have a good resistance, it’s not total herd immunity and vulnerable individuals will be seriously ill, just like the seasonal influenza we regularly get.

Coronavirus is not endemic. Just saying!

MaizieD

rosie1959

MaizeD I agree with some of your points around testing ventilation and people staying off work if they are unwell.
Wearing quality FFP2 masks is also a good idea if you feel you need the extra protection but I certainly won't be wearing one and it's very unlikely many will especially as other European countries are dropping regulations
Who honestly unless they are particularly concerned wants to wear a tight fitting FFp2 mask in all indoor areas for the foreseeable future.

If you don't want to mask up it's your funeral, as my parents used to say when we children did something risky.

If we had a requirement for all indoor spaces to have clean air; that is ventilation and air cleaners to the standard of 6 changes of air per hour, the need for masks wouldn't be so pressing.

I will take my chance MaizieD obviously not alone as we see fewer and fewer masks
I did have two vaccinations and a booster so that I presume was to protect me from serious illness
I did actually catch Covid from a family member a short while ago it was thanks to the vaccination program that I had no symptoms whatsoever
When is it ever going to be less risky as Covid is going nowhere
The good thing about FFP2 masks are that they actually protect the wearer unlike face coverings and surgical masks which are far less reliable, leaving people to make their own choices

rosie1959

MaizeD I agree with some of your points around testing ventilation and people staying off work if they are unwell.
Wearing quality FFP2 masks is also a good idea if you feel you need the extra protection but I certainly won't be wearing one and it's very unlikely many will especially as other European countries are dropping regulations
Who honestly unless they are particularly concerned wants to wear a tight fitting FFp2 mask in all indoor areas for the foreseeable future.

If you don't want to mask up it's your funeral, as my parents used to say when we children did something risky.

If we had a requirement for all indoor spaces to have clean air; that is ventilation and air cleaners to the standard of 6 changes of air per hour, the need for masks wouldn't be so pressing.

MaizeD I agree with some of your points around testing ventilation and people staying off work if they are unwell.
Wearing quality FFP2 masks is also a good idea if you feel you need the extra protection but I certainly won't be wearing one and it's very unlikely many will especially as other European countries are dropping regulations
Who honestly unless they are particularly concerned wants to wear a tight fitting FFp2 mask in all indoor areas for the foreseeable future.

The indifference to this of the government, and, it seems, to a large section of the population which includes parents and grandparents, is shocking.

Yes it is. I think the complete abolition of any actions to mitigate the spread of Covid has made many think it’s all over.

MaizieD , I agree entirely. This government has major failing of imagination and creativity.

Katie59

It’s highly unlikely that we will eliminate Covid we have got to live with it, we should vaccinate and treat the symptoms as they arise.

As we have done with Influenza for many years.

I'm sorry but the 'learn to live with it' mantra just sickens me. How many times do people have to be informed that this virus is not like flu.

We all know that post viral debility has been around for years and years, but it doesn't seem to affect nearly as many people as does Long Covid. We also know that the virus can damage internal organs, even after a 'mild' attack and can cause ''problems' some time after apparent recovery. So letting the virus loose has serious implications for the future health of the population. Particularly the thousands of children who have been infected, some more than once and who may have to live with long term damage caused by covid for the rest of their lives (lives which might be shortened in consequence).

The indifference to this of the government, and, it seems, to a large section of the population which includes parents and grandparents, is shocking.

Learning to live with covid should not mean returning to the pre covid world we all knew. Learning to live with it means implementing mitigation to lessen the chances being infected and the chances of infecting others.

Which means quality mask wearing in indoor spaces (FF2 at the least) , proper isolation periods for sufferers, sick pay for those unable to work, insistence that employers don't make staff work while infected and infectious, access to testing, if not free, than at least very cheaply, and measures to improve ventilation and air quality in all public indoor spaces, particularly in educational and health establishments.

The government 'could' invest more into implementing these measures, which would not only provide employment and a stimulus to the industries which provide these tools for mitigation, but they would also prevent decline in sectors which are currently suffering from high numbers of staff absence.

It would also be helpful if our so called 'Health' Minister would stop trying to convince us that we are 'world leaders' in 'beating covid', because we just are not. Infections are higher than they have ever been and over 1,000 covid deaths per week are not exactly anything to boast about.. Perhaps instead he could start trying to look after the nation's health and stop running down the NHS...

Very interesting article, thank you. The reports from China, Shanghai in particular, where they have locked up hundreds and thousands of people, some of whom now don't have enough food, or even water, are dreadful. I understand the difficulties faced by the government, sometime we have to get back to some kind of normal, whatever that is, but the rapid rise in infections is frightening; I know no end of people who have tested positive in the last month or so, and sometimes for the second or third time. I don't know what the answer is though, somewhere between the draconian measures in China, and the laissez faire here.

Katie59

It’s highly unlikely that we will eliminate Covid we have got to live with it, we should vaccinate and treat the symptoms as they arise.

As we have done with Influenza for many years.

I think this is true I was looking at the ONS figures there are far more deaths that involve influenza and pneumonia per week than there are involving Covid but we do not request restrictions like masks to avoid these deaths
Covid has higher figures for deaths that are actually due to Covid but I suspect we have built up a greater resistance to influenza
For the last few weeks deaths that are directly due to covid are around 500 per week predominantly as you would expect in the older age groups

Herd immunity is like how Europeans had common viral diseases and most did not die of it but when European adventurers mixed with native Americans the virus that was endemic only in Europe killed masses of American natives.

We know that there are simple measures that can be taken to reduce infection levels. I also think that those in power have access to state of the art treatment. A recent thread described the impossibility of getting anti virals despite being vulnerable. Not a problem for cabinet ministers I think.

It’s highly unlikely that we will eliminate Covid we have got to live with it, we should vaccinate and treat the symptoms as they arise.

As we have done with Influenza for many years.

It seems to me that Covid is being completely ignored now, by those in power and by many in the population. Are we just going to accept that it will go round and round in the population? And that around 150 people every day will die from it?

No it’s not flu but there is a basis for comparison. Flu can leave sufferers with long term problems some of which can be serious. It can also kill especially those who are elderly and vulnerable.
The whole issue is fraught with complications. If the government doesn’t try to get the economy back on track many businesses will close and there will be job losses and greater hardship than we already have.

Katie59

There are a great many viruses circulating in any populations, most of which have a large degree of immunity to them, it’s when you have a new virus strain that serious illness occurs. Influenza is a good example, the virus changes from year to year and scientists developed vaccines to protect against the most likely strains.

Because global travel is so widespread any new airborne virus is going to become a pandemic very quickly, we don’t know what the threat is in advance and it takes time to develop a vaccine. Corona virus is now endemic in the population, most of us have a good resistance, it’s not total herd immunity and vulnerable individuals will be seriously ill, just like the seasonal influenza we regularly get.

It's not like flu, there can be serious long termconsequences for even young people with mild infection.

There are a great many viruses circulating in any populations, most of which have a large degree of immunity to them, it’s when you have a new virus strain that serious illness occurs. Influenza is a good example, the virus changes from year to year and scientists developed vaccines to protect against the most likely strains.

Because global travel is so widespread any new airborne virus is going to become a pandemic very quickly, we don’t know what the threat is in advance and it takes time to develop a vaccine. Corona virus is now endemic in the population, most of us have a good resistance, it’s not total herd immunity and vulnerable individuals will be seriously ill, just like the seasonal influenza we regularly get.

Herd immunity can only be reached when enough people in the population have recovered from a disease and have developed protective antibodies against future infection so that they cannot pass it on to others. If individuals, particularly vaccinated individuals, are experiencing repeat infections of the same variant, however mild, then it’s clear that the virus doesn’t work in this way and/or vaccine effectiveness is fading.

I agree, the government have lost interest. Putin’s war on Ukraine has necessarily kept the very worrying infection rate off the front pages. Nevertheless, that doesn’t abrogate Javid of his responsibility to manage what is still very much a pandemic. This is what happens when you put (yet another UK tax-evading) banker in charge of healthcare. He will put money first and healthcare second.

We have never become immune to the common cold which is also a Corona virus so I don't think herd immunity will happen.
People are being infected with covid more than once so like the cold will give immunity for a short time but not for ever.

I don't fully understand it either. Thank you for the article, interesting reading.